Charles Parsons

I came to Oberlin as a Goldwater conservative and left backing the ideas of Bobby Kennedy.. It was the exchange of controversial ideas by fellow students that challenged my own thinking and caused the change.  Thankyou Oberlin. It can be stressful to have your own values threatened by the logical positions of your classmates. For those of you backing Israel, try Norman Finkelstein's  GAZA.  For years, Israel has created, in Gaza, the largest prison in the world and now has set out to destroy the Palestinians.  To be a liberal Oberlinian and support Israel's history ethnic cleansing of is a difficult mental task.  Try cognitive dissonance.  

Ted Morgan

I'm sorry to see friends suggesting that we can't discuss Israel-Gaza among ourselves without losing friendships.  I mean, we've been friends and classmates for what, 60 years, and we]ve been through and seen a lot. Accordingly, I do have a few comments to share.

First, though, I want to say that certainly understand our classmates who have a very strong, even identity-based attachment to the state of Israel.  I will also say that Hamas' outrageous attack on October 7 was reprehensible and a clear war crime.  But I will say to those classmates & friends that we've all been exposed to varying histories of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians (in particular).  We should all be mindful of the degree to which what we read and watch reinforces our existing belief system.  The role played by propaganda and US mass media has been very significant in this country.  But the other thing I would say is that it may take a healthy dose of empathy to appreciate the level of desperation --and, yes, historical and on-going oppression--  of Palestinian people in Gaza (and the West Bank, for that matter).

Having said, that, I appreciate Dan Miller's itemizing some of the horrific assault we have all witnessed in Gaza.  Yes, the US has at differeent times engaged in comparable atrocities. But morality cannot be based on whetlher it's "my country" or not.

I would say to Israelis, do you not understand that violence against a people will produce more violence on their part (as we witnessed after October 7)?  Hamas, or its equivalent down the road, will never be "eliminated" through horrific attacks like these --unless, of course, the people are eliminated.

I want to make a few comments about the student protests.  Most have been organized to be non-violent protests.  One thing that always happens with public protests, though, is that organizers can't control who attends and whether all attenders share in the organizers' purposes.  [Recall that civil rights protests did not want sympathetic communist party participants, and recall the youths who displayed Viet Cong flags at many of the antiwar protests (whereas Ho Chi Minh himself said the protesters should carry American flag.]  I don't question that there have been people at protests saying anti-semitic things.  We know there are many people who are anti-semitic.  But, that is not the way much of mass media, to say nothing of well-placed detractors have described the protests. 

Furthermore, it's enormously difficulty to control the message one wants the public to get from the protests.  The US mass media have never been fans of protest, no matter the cause, really.  They typically downplay the numbers of participants, and exaggerate or concentrate their cameras on the most outrageous signs or behaviors.  They never really take the protesters' arguments seriously but instead air interpretations by right-wing attackers and safe "translations" by establishment liberals.  Check out how many times you could find the New York Times (for example) describing the US war in Vietnam as a "criminal act of aggression by the United States."  I'll save you the effort; you won't find any.  The other things that typically happens in the media when riot police wade into a group of protesters, beating them with billy clubs, etc., is that the media report that the protests were "marked by violence."  Even if it's all coming from the cops.

Final point, an additional reason students in this country are protesting is that this country is hugely complicit in what is going on in Gaza.  That's really indisputable.

One of the things I find frightening in this country is the McCarthy-like crackdown on dissent on our campuses.  It's as if we've forgotten what academic freedom is supposed to mean and why it's important.  Many tales of faculty and students being disciplined or even banned from campus, for uttering their views or joining protests in solidarity with the Palestinian people.  Along with the right-wing assault and corporatization of higher education, the acsdemy is in trouble.

Ted

Ted Morgan

No, Jeff, it's not identical to Vietnam.  But I find it ironic that the rapid spread of campus protest is something we're talking about today, the 54th anniversary of Kent State.

Ted
 

Bernie Mayer

Hi All,

I too am glad to learn of the student protests at Oberlin. 

I pretty much agree with everything Ted Morgan said and appreciate his perspective.  I am posting below an entry I made on FB (I know kind of pathetic--but I wanted to write something, somewhere) about 10 day ago giving my perspective on the protests and the issue of antisemitism  and the horror that is being rained down on Gaza. 

Here it is:

Matthew Rinaldi

A few points to add to this appropriate discusiion.

First, the left has condemned the Hamas attack on civilians.  The Military Law Task Force of the National Lawyers Guild, where I sit on the steering committee, immediately issued a complete denunciation, outlining all aspects of international law which prohibit killing of civilians in warfare.  Going even further left, Workers Vanguard wrote:

"Let's get two thigs straight.  First, Palestinians face brutal national oppression and indescriminate murder by the state of Israel - they have every right to defend themselves, even through force.  Second, the targeted murder of Israeli civilians by Hamas and its allies is a despicable crime which is totally counterproductive to Palestinian liberation."

The huge ongoing demonstrations against the slaughter in Gaza by the curremt far right Israeli government are appropriate here in the U.S. because the U.S. has financed and continues to finance the Israeli destruction in Gaza and in the West Bank.  In contract, Hamas has never been financed by the U.S., but tragically was financed for years by Netanyahu and the Israeli government to split the Palestinians between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and weaken the possible creation of a Palestinian state.

Second, you may remember when Life magazine ran the photographs of all the US soldiers killed in Vietnam in one week.  It had quite an impact.  I did some rough calculations for Israel and Gaza with the existing round numbers.  Figuring 50 photographs of real people on each page, the pages filled with photographs of the Israeli dead on October 7 fill an entire 240 pages.  But those pages would be followed by 2,600 pages of dead children in Gaza and another 4,100 pages of photographs of dead adult women and men.

.  

Anne Ashcraft (Maher)

Robert Baker

Well said, Ted, Bernie and Matt. 

Paul Osterman

So this is maybe the first time I've posted but I'm provoked.

So Ted your second post was more thoughtful.  Your first post had one comment "Bravo" to a demonstrator who claimed that Israel is committing genocide.  Really?  The Holocaust was genocide.  Rwanda was genocide.  What we did to the First Nations could be termed genocide.  Gaza is not genocide by any reasonable definition.  What is happening is not right and it is fair to condemn it. But it is not genocide and using that term is in my view both sloppy, incendiary,  and destructive to the dialogue your second post advocates.  But you said "Bravo".

Now a few questions:    after October 7 but before the bombing did any of you folks who like to post here or anywhere else post anything saying something like Hamas are criminals and what they did was unspeakable and there must be consequences for them?   I'd love to see your posts.

Second question:  when you performatively praised the demonstrations did you check to see that the demonstrations did not include some people who used antisemitic language or called for the destruction of Israel.   Certainly that's a minority, probably a small one,  but certainly it's been there.  Maybe you checked first so that's why you didn't condemn those statements while also saying "Bravo"?

Third question:  do you believe that Israel has a right to defend itself, that Hamas needs to be defenestrated and that it is very hard to do this without any civilian causalities because Hamas uses civilians as shields?   No one (except Hamas) denies that they do this.   Maybe you have better ideas about military strategy or maybe you think Israel shouldn't defend itself if doing so kills some of the wrong people?

Israel has made mistakes, tragic mistakes,  and has clearly gone too far with the destruction.   It has damaged itself through this excess.    But there are in my view two fundamental truths: Israel has a right to defend itself and Hamas must be heavily punished.  

Bottom line: Just jumping to praise the demonstrations is fundamentally blind about what Israel faces and what it has a right to do.   Netanyahu is a snake and Israel could have done much better.   But attacking Israel and calling it names without recognizing the existential threat it faced, and faces, its right to defend itself,  the history of Jews being wiped out,  and the challenge of how to defeat a foe who hides behind civilians is just one sided.    The comments just praising the demonstrations without recognizing all these complexities is not what one might expect from thoughtful people trying to do and support the right thing.

Ted Morgan

Paul, you missed what I was saying "Bravo" to.  Shirley's initial comment was how good it was to see the headline about Oberlin students protesting the "Israel-Hamas war,"  My Bravo was to echo that sentiment; I remain encouraged by the fact that some Oberlin students have reacted to the scale of atrocities being waged against the civilian people of Gaza.   That's what I was applauding.  (After my 'bravo', Shirley later asserted that this was a genocide)

But let me say something about "genocide."   Personally, I believe you are right that what is happening is not yet a genocide per se  (nor, for the record, did I claim that).  But what people are reacting to is what appears to them to be the end game of Israeli policy, evidence for that including: first, the massive destruction of apartment buildings, refugee camps, etc. in Northern Gaza, forcing roughly a million people to flee to "safety" in Southern Gaza, and the destruction of hospitals there and in Southern Gaza; second, the hugely disproportionate level of killing of civilians (including thousands of children) --well depicted by Matthew's reference to potential photos of victims; third, the determined insistence by Netanyahu that Israel will carry out its attack on Rafah, where more than a million Palestinians have fled (or reside) for their alleged safety; fourth, the determination through Israeli actions that "humanitarian" aid --including food desperately needed to avoid starvation-- has been tighly limited; and finally, all these actions --clearly war crimes and atrocities-- are buttressed by the racist (and even genocidal) language several in the Israeli government and IDF have used with respect to Palestinians.

Finally, I'll just reiterate that I find it hugely regrettable that anti-semitic attacks probably have occurred at some of the protests on US campuses (though I tried to suggest how that can happen even when the protest organizers do not want that happening), and I'll reiterate that Hamas' attack on civilians in Israel was clearly a war crime and an atrocity. 

I just wonder what your (and others') way out of this recurring tragedy for the people of Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel might be.

Ted

Richard Zitrin

I’m late to this thread but glad to see it happening. I’ve had few outlets to express my own views, and this – yes, Ted, we can discuss in a civil manner with old friends – is an excellent forum for that.

As Matt has noted, we all condemn Hamas’s unwarranted violence. But Israel’s response was wildly inappropriate and the massacre of civilians unconscionable. And those who defend Israel too easily turn a blind eye to the subjugation that the Palestinian people have faced for decades.

We are all informed by our experience. Mine included going with J Street and its founder/leader Jeremy BenAmi to Israel in 2017. Founded as an alternative to AIPAC with the slogan “pro-Israel and pro-peace,” J Street was a useful place for someone with my views. My trip showed me the horrors of the Israeli occupation in full relief. One could hardly go to Hebron and not see how badly the Palestinian population is treated.

Unfortunately, despite entreaties of those J Street supporters (including me and Congresswoman Barbara Lee, who was on my Israel trip) for a modulated Israeli response that did not involve invading Gaza, J Street did not stand up strongly or quickly enough against Israel’s aggression. This may have left this previously helpful and useful organization on the wrong side of history. I attribute it to a rose-colored failure to recognize not only that the Israeli attack would do catastrophic harm to innocent people but also firm up worldwide sentiment against Israel and the resultant anti-Semitism.

As the husband of someone who has a pro-Israel perspective and the father of a JVP adherent, I find both positions frustrating. A lot of this is about anti-Semitism. I believe that defending Israel is tied closely to the fear of worldwide anti-Semitism. After all, isn’t that what the creation of the state of Israel was designed to protect against? A safe haven for Jews? Yet, defending Israel requires defending its decades-long use of apartheid against Palestinians and its current war atrocities.

OTOH, while JVP supporters here have said that the current protests are not anti-Semitic, I can’t agree. They are not all so, but many tropes seem widely supported. Latent anti-Semitism, like latent racism, is there and comes out at times like this. Thus, we have the “kill Zionists” sentiment expressed by a Columbia student and a Loyola LA about-to-graduate law student saying “Get the f**k outta here, all you uglyass little Jewish people.” That student says she was provoked by people using the N word. Still, without her underlying anti-Semitism, she would not have said what she said as a result of someone else’s not-so-underlying racism.

The problem is the sides, aligned back in the Vietnam protest days of our youth, are now too often talking past each other. And solutions are, sadly, increasingly difficult to arrive at. We clearly need to listen better and encourage young people to listen better as well.

Rich

Matthew Rinaldi

Just a polite and hopefully clear response to one of Paul's questions - did any of us post condemnation of the Hamas attack after Oct. 7 but before the Israeli bombing.  YES.

On October 8 we started a discusiionm in the Military Law Task Force (MLTF) of the National Lawyers Guild.  The entire steering committee condemned the Hamas attack.  I wrote that I was anti-Zionist but I condemned the Hamas attack 100 per cent. The steering committee agreed.  We then put it tro our membership, over 120 people, and on October 10 we issued this statement:

"MLTF condems the wholesale massacre of 900 Israeli civilians and the taking hostage of another 150.  That the Netanyahu government has chosen to retaliate for this war crime with its own targeting of civilians, itself a war crime, doeas not excuse the criminality of the initial Hamas war crime."

That's it.  Looking back, it certainly was a short window of time between the Hamas attack and the Israeli mass bombing of Gaza, and as a result our numbers were only the early count, but we were as quick as possible.

Julianne Puzon

I appreciate Jeffrey Leibman’s false analogies with Vietnam, Steve Kravitz’ questioning about the lack of Oberlin students’ response to Oct. 7, and Paul Osterman’s truth about Israel’s right to defend itself. To Ralph Shapira – I would like to hear your concepts of ethnic cleansing and genocide. I find many of the posts here very informative, and I certainly deplore the suffering and deaths of the people of Gaza.

But so many organizations – including the UN Women - were strangely silent about condemning Hamas for the horrors of the Oct. 7 attack in which women were  butchered. Hamas used the brutality of rape as a weapon of war, just as the Russians have been doing in Ukraine. Where were the campus protests, street marches, etc. around these events? I can’t help but think that the rise of antisemitism and the attendant holocaust denial are factors.

Marc Landy

I want to thank Paul Osterman and Steve Kravitz for bringing thoughtfulness and sobriety to the discussion of Gaza. Hamas is causing the genocide. Hiding behind innocent civilians is evil. Hiding arms and terrorists in hospitals is evil. Taking, mistreating and killing hostages is evil. Rape is evil  Israel's very existence is under threat and it is fighting for survival.

Andrew S Ward

History is always forcing people into making false choices. In our parents’ generation it was between fascism and communism, and woe betide anyone, like George  Orwell, who tried to map out an alternative. In our generation it seemed to be between pacifism and war. But the world of nations, theologies, bigotries and greed is too complex for us, at a distance, to conceptualize as pro-this or anti-that. I condemn Hamas which is not to say Palestinians and Netanyahu and his boys ( which is not to say Israel nor Jews) for a cycle of injustice and brutality to which only humane statesmanship can bring an end. But such has been so lacking, that It makes me wonder if monotheism is to blame. That the land Israel occupies has become the nexus for so much conflict may have more to do with the collision among the four great monotheistic religions that were born there, each believing its God is the one and only. If that seems overly lofty, I apologize. For what little it’s worth, I hope with all my heart that this war will be over and some measure of humanity restored on both sides. 

Steve Kravitz

I keep hearing that Hamas is an idea and that force will not stop it. But, no one ever asks what the Hamas idea is. Well, I'll tell you. The Hamas idea, and you can include the PA and Hezbollah as well, is the GENOCIDE OF THE JEWS. How about if I repeat that.

GENOCIDE OF THE JEWS.

Hamas, PA and Hezbollah want to destroy Israel (see their charters and listen to what they say) and at best relegate the Jewish population to Dhimmi status (second class citizens with the requirement to pay a special tax for protection) and at worst ANNIHILATE the Jewish population. That's it. That's what they want.

This Jew hatred didn't start with the creation of Israel. Amin al-Husseini, the former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (in other words the Palestinian big cheese) lived in Berlin during WW II and met with, you got it, Adolph Hitler (you remember him). Why you ask. To work out plans for the murder of the Jews in mandatory Palestine after Germany won the war. Of couse, there were other atrocities such as the 1929 Hebron massacre. The point is, this is not a new thing.

What about a two state solution, with a Palestinian state comprised of Gaza, east Jerusalem and the West Bank? That's what is talked about. Funny thing though. That's exactly what the Palestinians were offered by the UN in 1947 and what they had from 1948 to 1967. They did nothing with it, and they lost it in the Six Day war in June, 1967. Ariel Sharon gave back Gaza in 2005 and instead of building an economy and population friendly infrastructure, Hamas dug tunnnels and acquired rockets and guns from Iran.

Israel allocates roughly one third of it's GDP to defense. Why, because they know, and you all know, that Hamas, Hezbollah and the PA want only one thing:

GENOCIDE OF THE JEWS

Golda Meir was correct when she said that war will end when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews.

Israel is always being told what they have to do. Give back land, stop their army from advancing and on and on. But no one ever asks the Palestinians to do the one essential thing that would bring peace and prosperity to both Arabs and Jews. Simply, stop your hatred of the Jews. Imagine what could be accomplished and how may lives could be saved by simply doing that.

Steve Kravitz

Charles Parsons

      Yes, what Israel is doing is genocide, defined as " an act committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a racial or ethnic group."  Israel has done far more than attack Hamas.  Beyond the killing of more than 30,000 Palestinians, it has destroyed homes, hospitals,  schools, factories, infastructure, and farming operations.  Hamas must be hiding in the destroyed water treatment works or planted farm fields.  The results of these bombing is now leading to highly preventable starvation and disease.

      Israel has attacked Gaza numerous times with massive destruction but this is the worst.  The intent appears to be making Gaza unlivable.  Israel, however, is also systematically destroying, via settlers, the Palestinian West Bank, which is not under Hamas control.  The Israeli military protects the settlers in their destructive acts.  Type in on the internet "Palestine territory over time"  and see what part of the West Bank is left to the Palestinians and how their territory has been splintered into small "bantustans."  Movement by Palestinians is highly restricted and now Israelis are stormng the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem with a desire to ultimatlely destroy it.  So, there appears to be no place today in Israel that is safe for a Palestinian.  

      In 1967, after Israel defeated Egypt, Matzpen, a political party at that time, placed the following in Ha'aretz:

     Our right to defend ourselves against annihilation does not grant us the right to oppress others.                       Conquest brings in its wake foreign rule.  Foreign rule brings in its wake resistance.  Resistance in its              wake brings oppression.  Oppression brings its wake terrorism and counter-terrorism.  The victims of              terrrorism are usually innocent people.  Holding onto territories will turn us into  a nation of murderers              and murder victioms.  Let us leave the occupied territories now.

It has been stated that if Hamas and Hezballah would give up their guns,there would be no wars.  There would also be no chance for a viable Palestine.  Once  again, Hamas played no role in the West Bank but the  West Bank  is now threatened with destruction.

      The oppressor, which is Israel, cannot  have "self defense"  as its rational for its actions.  On October 7th, Hamas staged a remarkable military attack on Israel.  A large number of Israelis died in this attack but many were killed by the Israel's counter attack on buildings and vehicles.  The Israelis claim that Homas carried out  numerous rapes and beheadings.  Detailed investigations do not support this propaganda.  

      Please read internet sites such as juancole.com, moonofalabama.org, sonar21.com, or informationclearinghouse.info for alternative views. I grew up fully taken by the movie Exodus.  Unfortunately, I did not then know reality of the Nakba.

Daniel Miller

The idea that Israel, one of the top arms producers in the world, is threatened militarily by a ragtag group like Hamas is as ludicrous as the evangelicals complaining their existence is threatened by not being allowed to have school prayers.  You'll remember that ISIS was spawned in the US prison camps in Iraq among people who should not have been there.  Hamas was spawned in Gaza which was an industrial sized prison camp that couldn't import food without Israeli permission, that couldn't go overseas to study without Israeli permission, that had its import and export tariffs confiscated by Israel, and was kept down by Israeli control.  It doesn't take much thought to realize that violence was bound to result, and the more oppression there was, the greater the resulting violence was going to be.  

As JFK once said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."  This whole business with Gaza and the West Bank from the very beginning is a classic example of Barbara Tuchman's "The March of Folly."

Peter Griswold

In response to Juliann Puzon’s suggestion that the absence of campus protests following the Hamas attack are signs of a rising antisemitism and holocaust denial, I don’t think so.  The surprise attack by Hamas on October 7 was a criminal act.  While you can search for an underlying cause in the suppression of the Palestinian people by the Israeli government, that doesn’t excuse the wanton cruelty, the murder and imprisonment, inflicted upon civilians, many of whom were women and children.  In a modern society, it is intended that criminal acts are addressed by the institutions and agencies that are entrusted with the public safety.  Thus, we don’t engage in street marches against the murderer, the rapist, the child abuser.  We leave the resolution of their crimes to the legal authorities.  When we do protest, it is because there is a sense that the guardians of a just and civilized society either underreact or overreact to crimes committed against individuals and groups.   And I think the latter is what is happening in the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip.   I totally agree that Israela has the right to defend itself, but does that right give it carte balance to conduct any sort of military action it wishes?    

Anne Ashcraft (Maher)

Richard Zitrin

As the messages here become a bit more strident, I want to suggest, again, that two things - even more than two things - can be true. Here, I suggest the following, all without using labels^x:

*  The actions of the British government and the Balfour Declaration set up a circumstance where conflict between Jews and Palestinians was almost inevitable.

*  The Hamas attacks on October 7 were wonton and murderous.

*  The Netanyahu government's invasion of Gaza has caused the infliction of massive deaths of Gazans and effective destruction of their society.

*  The rights of the Palestinians who live in territory that Israel took control over in 1967 are seriously abridged by the presence of Israeli forces and the limitations of freedom that Palestinians have.

*  A resultant circumstance of the Israeli invasion has been strong opposition to Israel among a segment of American society, including widespread student protests.

*  A resultant circumstance of the Israeli invasion has been an increase in bias against Jewish people in the United States.

My own personal view is that the Israeli invasion was a gross mistake, most importantly in terms of human life and, tellingly, also in terms of public relations. Whatever sympathy Israel could have received as a result of October 7 has been vitiated and more by the events since. Netanyahu, to my mind, is the biggest cause of bias against Jewish people since Hitler.

I was appalled by the actions of Hamas on October 7. I am appalled by the actions of the Israeli government since. And I’m strongly opposed to the circumstances in the post-1967 areas.

^x  I've avoided labels and used descriptive words because they carry baggage and different people have different definitions. For example, under the UN definition, "genocide" refers to any one of five acts, of which killing is only one. E.g., transferring children to another group, as Russia has done, is considered "genocide." But it requires specific intent, which is where the dispute may lie, as the UN itself has acknowledged: "Intent is the most difficult element to determine."

Similarly, I've avoided the term "apartheid," and even the terms "Palestine" and "West Bank," because they too have baggage. The term "Zionism" has different definitions to different people, and anti-Semitism, though much clearer, might possibly as well.

Rich

Marc Landy

The president of the U. of Chicago has issued a statement explaining why he was compelled to end the student encampment. He emphasized the principle of institutional neutrality. The protesters would not budge from their inisistence that the U. divest holdings in Israel. At this point the encampment became intolerable to the Chicago Administration which understood the threat to academic freedom posed by it taking sides in a political dispute. It is for the students and faculty to take positions on controversial questions, not the college or university itself.  My institution, Boston College, has, appropriately, remained neutral on Gaza War. It is the responiblity of the Oberlin Trustees to do the same.

Daniel Miller

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.” 
― Desmond Tutu

Charles Parsons

Just read Juan Cole, University of Michigan professor, regarding the colllege student protests. Not bad reading.  You can find it as juancole.com and is entitled Israel and Campus Protests.  Charlie

Charles Parsons

Sorry to but in again, but you also might log into TomDispatch.com and read Norman Soloman's article entited "When Students are a shock to the system."

Frank Duhl

Thank you, Charlie, for both articles.